as i raised in the post.
it's not an economic thing
it's a white trash thing
rich white trash, poor white trash.

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I put up with and ignore a lot of rampant stupidity before I even SAY anything. People don't realize this.

Someone needs to bitchslap melvillean. Honestly. I have never dealt with anyone who is so clearly incorrect, has no fucking idea what he's talking about, and has deluded himself into refusing to see it. And somebody tell him that Lakewood is not Tacoma anymore than Bellevue is Seattle.

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I dare say I know a bit more as a native than you do as a transplant. Bitchslap away, sweetums. ;)

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I doubt your personal testimony, especially given you admit having moved away years ago. Take a walk down Commerce Street tonight, since you think it's so safe down there.

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My parents still live in Steilacoom, so I'm in Tacoma every few months or so. And the last time I was on Commerce street at night was about six months ago.

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Did you take the bus, or did you park your car and walk half a block? I can see you trying to pass that off as walking Commerce Street.

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I've done both, and when I've parked, I've done more than just one block. Really, you need to get off it. I know more about this city than you do.

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Like what, two blocks?

Look, you even admitted in the related lengthy argument that Commerce Street is not a safe stretch of road, which would be fine except it's right down the heart of Tacoma. And then the two cab attacks, and then all the other shit that never got brought up, the meth lab explosions and gang shootings and the hoodrats that come up from Tacoma to the U District for no other reason than to gun down frat/sorority kids. I mean, seriously, dude, why is it so important to you to defend Tacoma's honor, when the overall evidence clearly shows that the city is a craphole? There are cities that are very nice, without cab robberies and rampant meth crimes and gangsters trolling the streets and going down the road to attack people in other cities and gang related school shootings and so on and so forth. I'm not sure what your stake is in defending Tacoma. I freely admit that my hometown, las Vegas, is a crime ridden joint, and Vegas has a LOT of nice places where one can feel safe. So what? So does Miami, and Miami has neighborhoods that even the cops won't go into, for fear of getting killed.

You're arguing a general point that an overwhelming majority agrees (and many have even personally witnesses) is untrue. And no amount of philosophy or cheap shots will change that. So cut it out.

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What majority? What source are you citing in pulling that information?

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Pretty much everyone in Puget Sound, save for a handful of apologists, such as yourself.

Another factor is waking up to the radio every morning and hearing about yet ANOTHER violent crime in Tacoma, seriously, almost every day.

While I'm the only one here arguing the point with you, I invite you to take a survey of the other members, or even other people in town (people you don't know, plz), and solicit their opinions.

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Possibly because you use words like "ghetto" and "trash" and equate a tragedy (that was not gang related by the way) with our entire city.

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Clearly, you're not as done with this argument as you think you are. Here's some help.

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Hi. I stumbled upon your comments and the following riot in the Seattle community (which I read as I am looking for a room mate so I can move up there on schedule to live with my gf).

I'm going to first prefact this with the fact that I have only driven through Tacoma a few times with my gf in April when I was visiting her for a week, so I speak ONLY through what I've heard from her and many others that live or lived in WA.(3 of my room mates now lived in WA, and only one of them has anything good to say about Tacoma).
From all I hear from my roomies, my girlfriend and my other WA friends, everything you said in your comment is entirely accurate.
The area I currently reside in, "the village" (insert numerous shudders) is, from what I've heard, very similar to Tacoma and I'd say ghetto is the perfect descriptive term for such places. My 3 room mates who have lived both here and in WA all say that being in the village gives them "Tacoma flashbacks" (granted they say it with a snorting laugh).

I just wanted to give you a hand of support as it seems all you're getting is shit for what I, and many others, find to be a valid opinion. What people are missing is that "ghetto" isn't, or doesn't have to be, a race related term. Nowhere did I see you mention any racial slurt, just facts from personal experiance and news stories. All anyone else seemed to have is insults and drivel. People have to turn anything possible into a race riot if they can, because it's a crime to be ... honest about certain places? I get the same shit for saying that the village is an overglorified-overpriced ghetto. Granted the people who say those things have either only been to the good areas of the village, or only been there during the day, or with a big group of people. It's easy to dismiss stories in those cases, but when they're alone at night carrying a purse and looking like they have more than $5 in their back pocket, they'll be humming a different tune come morning.

/rambling-support

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Hey, thanks. I'm used to being left out to dry in these arguments by members who agree with me but never say so, so thanks for that.

Rants on your part are fine with me. I'll even go on one now: The funny thing is that, often times, even when I disagree with something in a discussion, I let it be and say nothing. If I find someone says something silly or nonsensical, still, I'll zip it... unless it's just a flat-out ridiculous point... like vehemiently arguing that Tacoma is actually a nice, safe place to live.

That's one thing people don't realize about me, that I'm not just out to pick fights or to be a jerk. If I'm arguing the point, it's because the point you're making was just so far out of line that I had to respond. I'm no bluffer and I'm no troll. But people either don't get that or they simply want to see you in a certain way, to make themselves feel better.

I'm sure the two arguers in question are decent people, and I'm sure they cut their teeth in nicer parts of Tacoma, and that Tacoma has its positive qualities. But that doesn't make the main point wrong. Visit Tacoma and you are more likely to end up on dangerous ground than most other cities of similar size and makeup. I think the motive for their fervent defense of the city goes beyond the validity of my point, to some sort of personal stake.

An issue that always gets brought up: One can always argue that I could be nicer in these discussions, but that's a whole other issue to debate. Honestly, though, I find when someone heatedly disagrees with you, or just is mad about a correct point you made (sometimes the truth hurts)... no matter how nicely you put it, they drop the hammer and get mad at you anyway, so one might as well just say it bluntly, since the effect is the same.

Again, thanks for voicing your support. It's always appreciated.

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Tacoma is way better than it used to be. There are great theaters, restaurants, museums, etc. My husband and I feel perfectly safe and comfortable walking around downtown Tacoma in the evenings (we don't live in Tacoma, but go there often to see movies at the Grand, stage plays at the Tacoma Actors Guild, etc.). I don't know if you live nearby or if you've been to downtown Tacoma lately, but you might want to check it out. As with every city, there are seedy parts. But Tacoma has some nice places, too.

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Shreveport is better than it used to be... and it's still a desolate dump of a town, with half the storefronts empty and so many unemployed people that they troll the streets simply because there's no job market and nothing else to do.

Tacoma may be better than before, but as of today they have a long way to go before they cross the threshold into safe, nice town.

Not sure who you are, 'anonymous', or if anyone AHEM sent you here, so I must take your comments with a grain of salt. It's only fair. For all I know, you could be a sock puppet of someone I just discussed this with. You could have made all that up.

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Check out these statistics for Tacoma:
http://tacoma.areaconnect.com/crime1.htm

And Seattle:
http://seattle.areaconnect.com/crime1.htm

Yes Tacoma has some rough areas and a high crime rate for a small city. But in 2004 Seattle had twice as many murders, almost the same number of rapes, and nearly 3 times the armed robberies as Tacoma. As a former Seattlite, I'd also argue that you have a much higher chance of random bad things happening to you in "civil" Seattle. For example, the latest Tacoma shooting was probably over some personal grudge or love triangle. Compare that with the latest shootings over the summer in Seattle - where Kyle Huff shot up a house full of total strangers and a convenient store clerk was murdered at random. Or we can go back to 200-2001 when Seattle's downtown was turned into a freaking battlefield twice in little over a year. The Mardi Gras fiasco left dozens hurt and one dead in what was clearly a race riot - something that hasn't happened in Tacoma since the late 1800s.

The truth is if you live in a decent neighborhood in Tacoma (I do), don't belong to a gang (I don't), and are not into the drug scene (I'm not), you have very little to fear. The bad neighborhoods in Tacoma have distinct boundaries and anyone's who visited here longer than 5 minutes quickly knows what part of town to stay out of. Compare this with Pioneer Square, which one could argue is the heart of Seattle nightlife but also a place where crime regularly takes place, including Seahawk Ken Hamlin almost being beaten to death.

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You're trying so hard, whoever you are.

Yes Tacoma has some rough areas and a high crime rate for a small city.

And that really is the point, all along. Discussion over.

Um, check the populations. You would've been better served, random stranger who won't name him/herself, using per capita numbers... but that likely would've disproved whatever point you were trying to make, so I can see why you didn't use them. Go back to your stats and notice how much higher the violent crime rate for Tacoma is... despite the Tacoma PD having a much smaller area and population to patrol than Seattle's PD. And much of that happens in a few select areas, including the aforementioned city center, which is supposed to be the core of your city's tourism and civic activity. Fail.

Ken Hamlin: he walked into the hip-hop club Larry's, the single most dangerous club in the city (in an area that sees surprisngly little violence otherwise given its clientele and location) and actively tried to pick several fights inside the club before one of his targets caught him outside with a stop sign. Premeditated based on a previous confrontation. Not exactly a random mugging, and not exactly a solid example to defend your point.

And referncing the past isn't relevant to what is happening in the present. I recall WTO and the horrid Mardi Gras scene... and rampant random crime like that has not happened since I moved here, so obviously Seattle has made significant progress. There has been crime, indeed, and there's work to be done w/r/t solving fundamental issues, but the city is largely safe. We cannot say the same for Tacoma.

This is another random comment that misses the point completely, in making an uncannily pointed attempt to refute every valid point made so far. Plz to let me know where you linked here from, or who sent you here.

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Kyle Huff was also an isolated, premeditated attack, a la Columbine... plus he was possibly batshit crazy. Kyle Huff wasn't no gang member, as the shooter at the HS in Tacoma likely was (the description of the scene, a bloody shooting in the hall, point blank, at a locker, indicates a gangsta-style hit). Bad example #2.

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Gomez, I tend to agree with you, but Tacoma isn't a ghetto.

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